I got a rather heated and passionate comment here on the site and I wanted to do my best to reply with the most amount of compassion that I could. I do not believe responding in hate to hate is helpful, compassion to others is helpful, so here goes (my replies are in blue):
Roy Martin |
Any thing that goes against the laws of nature has negative consiquences.All of you gay people think you have the right to infest your evil sex acts and desease on society.
Well, Roy, you did a good job at telling us what we think, but you have to admit you don’t really know what we think. It does sound like you are concerned for safety and needing to know that you are safe from disease. I can tell you that you are safe.
You say you were born that way but God did not create gay people.It is an evil spirit and you make the choice to except it just as drug users and murderers and child molesters do.They all have an excuse just as you do.
Roy, when I see you equate gays with evil, child molesters and murderers, I feel sad and angry. I need to be seen as authentic and real. I would never wish harm on a child, nor as a follower of nonviolence would I kill or harm another. It just isn’t in my values. I need for you to see me as transparent and human, because I am. Please let me know how I am can bring that compassion out of you.
You get angry at people and society if we bash your unnatural acts.If we except gay as normal then whats wrong with having sex with animals and children even our own daughters and sons.
Here Roy, you have gone down the slippery slope trail. I am not attracted to members of the opposite sex. I am attracted to member of the same sex. That doesn’t include relatives or children and certainly not animals. I just don’t have any attraction to the opposite sex and I never have. I do have an attraction to the same sex. With that said, I found a nice guy and we have been together for 8 years.
We can say we were born that way.If we except gay rights then it will be only a matter of time that all of these evil things that are against our design and laws of nature will be rampant on this earth.
Roy, if I read your words correctly, it sounds like you are concerned and afraid that if society accept gays and lesbians that the safety of the future is at risk. I am inspired by your need for safety for all. I hear your need for laws that protect us, all. I can only say that we gays and lesbians wish for the sane safety for this earth.
Its not your fault that this evil unclean spirit came into you but its your fault to choose to keep it.
I feel uneasy here Roy, as I don’t believe in spirits, but I also DO believe in science and research. So far, we understand that having same sex attractions is normal and natural. Many animals in the world, including humans have same sex attractions. It isn’t a choice. Many gays and lesbians tried with all their might to change and couldn’t. I would request that you explore those stories and see the humanity in the struggles. We are not talking about monsters or demons, but people.
You know good and well its wrong and perverted to no end.
Actually, no. I don’t know that nor do I agree with it. I think these labels of wrong and right are dangerous and promote violence. We all know what the TV taught us, that the guys who are wrong suffer without any acknowledgement of their humanity. I hope you are able to see this lable process of words we use is hurting more people than it helps.
You also know and believe in right and wrong.
No, I don’t. I did until I learned that this are just labels we use to put people into boxes that lead to violence. I stop when I learned that. Now I have replaced those terms with new words that remove the “deserve” language and replace it with needs met or not meet. It promotes less violence.
I also believe that you probably dont believe in God but im willing to bet you believe that you believe there is a satan.
Nope, I don’t. So don’t bet much, you lose. I don’t believe in supernatural stuff at all. No ghosts, no spirits, no gods , no demons. I just don’t buy into it.
Your anger really isnt against people like me.
Anger, I have none. I am not angry Roy, I am worried and concerned that we are on a path that will bring us all down in the name of gods who do not exist. I see the evidence everyday as well kill, discriminate and treat others like crap in the name of gods we cannot prove exist.
Its against yourself for the fact that you are weak and pathetic and an insult to all that is good and natural.
I was sad when I read these words. You did a good job of telling me “what” I am, but you have never met me. Would it not have been more productive to tell me what you feel and need? How can I meet your needs or make changes in the world if you have told me what you think I am rather than what you need and feel? Try again, I will listen.
Stop looking at those against you and look at yourself.
Roy, I have spent a lifetime of 40 years looking at myself. Did you really think you could change anything I have learned or concluded with one comment on my blog, that calls me names and tells me I am evil, perverted, weak and pathetic. Why would I listen to anything you have to say when all you do is call me names and insult me? If you want to reach gays and lesbians with a message from god, you might want to start by speaking in words that make them want to listen rather than words that make then want to ignore you. Just a suggestion.
Your the one that wimps out to bad choice not us.
So, it sounds like you would like us to make choices that agree with you? Do I have that correct?
I have children that need to be protected from you and your kind including any one that thinks its normal.
I am sad to hear you believe this, but It sounds like there isn’t much I can say to change your mind. I can tell you I have a big family and they don’t share your belief that anyone needs to be protected from me or people like me. I am disappointed you feel this way, that is why they call it homophobia. It means people are scared of gay people and feel they need protection. People like James Dobson, Peter LaBarbera, Stacy Harp and Matt Barber have put that fear into you that you feel you need protection from people like me or my kind. I bet if you spent a day with me, you would learn that isn’t true. I invite you to spend a day with me and my partner. You will learn that isn’t true.
You are a disgrace to man kind and God and our children and schools and family morals.
Gee Thanks, I guess. You have done a great job at judging people like me and telling us “what” we are by calling us a disgrace to man kind, but how is that helping anyone to tell them “what” they are? I would feel so much more confident if you would tell us what you are requesting of us rather than the moral judgments of what you think we are. I believe telling us what you want, feel and need will be more productive then your judgments of what we are.
I hope I answered your concerns Roy, and stayed respectful of your beliefs. Please feel free to comment again.
Peace,
-Joe Brummer,
Writer and Owner of Replace the lies with Truth
You can read the original comment here
UPDATES: Roy has returned and left lots of comments. I don’t have time to answer them now, but I will over the next few days. I have been without cable or internet, so it won’t be till I have the new hook ups.
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July 15th, 2008 at 10:25 pm
It’s a shame that some folks have to be so ugly and yet try to claim that they are on the side of righteousness. Good job with demonstrating maturity, Joe.
July 16th, 2008 at 12:45 am
Wow. This straight, married, middle-aged woman is once again blown over by the compassion of a gay person for a religious critic.
Quite frankly, I would’ve enjoyed busting him one in the virtual chops. but I expect your response is more productive.
July 16th, 2008 at 3:47 am
I thought I should point this out, just in case it came back to bite you on the arse: You wrote:
and
Otherwise a very reasonable response to an irrational bigot.
July 16th, 2008 at 4:44 pm
Hey Joe,
Good response. As Karen said, my first thought was to kick him in the virtual chops, but your response was much better!
July 19th, 2008 at 3:30 am
Good job Joe! You’re a bigger man than I.
July 19th, 2008 at 10:00 am
I apologize for the way and words I used in my comment.Yes I am angry but I do not hate gays.Its the spirit that I hate.I have known since I met my wife 2 years ago that her son is gay. I knew it at first glance.It took awhile for me to convince her of it and after catching him on dozens of gay sex positions websites that were fantasy creatures she now knows the truth.I use to not believe in God until 1998 but something happened in my life that took me into a dark place that was beyond description.All I wanted to do is die to escape the pain within.I did something I swore I would never do.I turned to God.It took years to grow in me because of my old way of thinking.Im 54 years old.It takes awhile to change so many years of thinking but I persisted and in my growing I realized I could sense spirits good and bad.It is like a magnet that pushes away from itself.I dont have to know you but stand beside you to sense good or bad spirits.I know from the replys to my comment that this sounds like sci-fi to you since you dont believe in God.Having said that Ill get back to my step son.He is 16 years old, extremly inteligent but he is torn apart inside.He isolates himself.He has no friends.Hes afraid of every thing.He has no passion or ambition or dreams.He doesn,t listen to music or care for cell phones.His life is basicaly empty.I know for a fact that he is fighting with a spirit of perversion and hes fighting it because of it being against the way we were designed,not because he has been tought that its wrong or from other sources.I love my son and no matter what choice he makes I,ll still love him but I will never stop tring to help him escape from this evil spirit that carries many spirits with it such as deception that keeps you from seeing the truth and excepting this as normal.You compared yourself to an animal by saying that their same sex behavior is normal, so it must be right for you too.Where do you think that kind of thinking comes from? You have given in to this same sex spirit because you couldn,t beat it with out God in your life.You can claim it normal until hell freezes over which it wont but you know deep inside of you that its wrong and against nature.All of us that makes wrong choices including myself will usually try to justify by dening or blameing or just simply give up on fighting and give in to what is wrong for us and to others.I did come on too strong in my comment and I was wrong for that.I know that spirits are hard to beat especially the gay spirit.I also know its easier to give in than it is to fight.What you started out to know was wrong has become a life style that you think is normal.If you rely on the quacks of science or man in general to convince you that they have the answer for all the world to know,well its just another source of deception that people looking for justification for what they know is wrong.Trying to prove nature is wrong.The law of gravity says if you jump off a cliff you will definitly fall down.How can you not think that there are natural forces and laws that are seen and unseen?Stop thinking with your gay spirit which will be hard to do and you,ll see the unseen.It isnt me that wants you to think my way, its simply a spirit that wants true peace for all of us.Its you that wants the world to except unnatural acts which will never happen.I am against violence for gay people but as I said,”breaking laws of nature has its price to pay.I have a battle to fight with the spirit in my son and with Gods help we will win.Im sorry you are lost to this choice of sin that you choose.As in Sodom you will be destroyed and punished for your choice and tring to convince our children that you are normal.God said” that you are an abomination to him meaning you disgust him and are an insult to his creation.
The many things that gays have in common is they are against Gods existance or are angry at Him.All evil forces are against God.Why is it that you dont believe in God?Could it be denial as I was in when I use to say there is no God?Even when I use to say that, I could feel something tug at me as I know you do.Yes I know more about nature than you do, that is obvious.Try one little prayer such as “God open my eyes to the truth.It starts with one step.I know Joe that you are lost.Your reply to me in all you said proves you and all that believe like you are still but even more a threat to family morals and our children by putting out a message that you are normal and society is wrong for not condoning your bahavior.A lot of the public is in your favor and this makes you all the more the threat but none the less,good will overcome.AS I said Its not you that I hate and remember that we are not like animals.
July 19th, 2008 at 11:14 am
I am not without compassion for you.You didn,t choose this spirit to come into you but i have no compassion for any one that chooses to make the choice to except it.Christians struggle with temptation also.WE all have spiritual attacts but rational people and rightous people will usually make the right choice and sometimes make the wrong choice but we know right from wrong but continue to work at doing what is right and normal.WE consider our choices and how it affects our loved ones and children.We cant just consider our temptations as normal to give in to and then try to convince the world that sin is ok.If you would have just kept it in the closet instead of tring to force your sin on the world but its not the nature and history of unclean spirits to keep themselves hidden.It is always their way to decieve themselves as something good or normal.Only people that doesn,t believe in God will be for you but not most of them.It is you that chooses your own fate.Your people say they have no anger.That is such a lie.Is their even one of you honest enough to say you know its wrong?There are thousands of ex gays that turned to God and now have normal lives and family that teach their children that gay is wrong.They were stronger than those than the people to my comment.Oh well sin which is evil has always been to those that choose and gay is evil no matter how you justiy yourself.I hope you find God and discover the real meaning of peace and being normal as God created us.
July 19th, 2008 at 11:41 am
Be thankful for us Christians.WE are the only hope that this world has.Without us the world would be total evil as it is becoming every day.It would have been here sooner without us to expose sin.Without us the child molester would have rights.The drug dealers would have rights.The people that use violence on gays would have rights.Its the Christians that want to keep the world safe and made the very laws that puts people in jail that would harm you but its not the Christians making the laws that condone same sex or laws making what Im saying a hate crime.Evil rules this world for now but watch and see where its going and how it will end and you are just one of evils many servants.Be thankful and if your not now then you will be in due time for the Christians that founded this country.Its much better to be used by God than Satan.Stop dening.
July 19th, 2008 at 2:29 pm
One more thing.When I was about 7 years old my step father awoke me in the night giving me oral sex. He did this several times while he was in our lives. I hated him for it all my life as a non Christian.My mother was murdered when I was 13.I had much anger in me.Igrew up as an outlaw so to speak.I ended up being one of the biggest marijuana growers in the country.I had everything so it seemed.I honestly thought it was my right and no man was going to deny of that.I was puffed up about it.I was proud of myself.All of my family loved me and excepted me as I was.I had peace, money,respect from the business community.Even some of the law enforcement respected me but still wanted to bust me but failed in that area.It wasn,t until I hit the bottom and started to believe in God that my whole world began to change.A way of life that came on me as a child which was a spirit began to dissapear very slowly.Everything I thought that was right was wrong as I began to see things in a totally different light.Its been 10 years since I became a christian but during that time I ended up in prison for manufacturing meth.While in prison I continued to seek God to deliver me from my sins and old way of thinking.I am very happy now with a christian woman and 2 children.AS I look back on my life I see the pride and deceit and anger and other things I could never see before and the wrong in all of it. Iy was the sin that kept me from seeing the truth and making me think I was happy.I made a choice to be normal and right and thank God that my drugs are not on the streets for children to get hold of.
To this day I still struggle from time to time of wanting to grow pot again but that will never happen because its wrong.My point is we do have a choice and we will make the right one if we seek the truth in God.Icant hate you as you think.Yes I vented some anger and I am sorry for the offense but the truth sometimes isnt pleasant but necessary.
You would not have this web site if you were not angry and had peace in your life.this web site is to promote sin and rebell against any one that is against you.This is the nature of lost people living in sin.I am here to understand so I can help my son from becoming like you Joe and all that support you. I challenge you to reply to all of my comments.Perhaps it may change you in some way.
July 20th, 2008 at 11:42 am
Joe did you delete my comments made July 20, 2008? If so, why?Ther was no name calling,no hate,or anger.No disrespect.Did I hit a nerve or what?Maybe so.You dont like the word evil do you?Is it because it hits a ball into your arena?Why does it make you angry?
July 21st, 2008 at 6:50 am
I am deeply concerned about the violence against gays,most especially for the young people.This morning I saw in the news The murder of a young teen boy.
The more I research on homosexuals the more clearer it becomes that the more you push your sin into the world the more violence you bring on yourselves.Its sin against sin.When God gave this kind of sin up to sin then this is just part of the punishment.
I am nothing but sincere when I say I Dont hate you and my heart goes out to the young people that are fighting to be normal.They dont have a chance without God.And you adults that have given in to your sin that no longer fight it are just as responsible as the ones that do the violence.And you say your not a threat to society or young people.Its true that words can bring violence.You that say your normal quit fighting sin because you didnt call on God to help you and now your words and actions are leading young people to a life of hell and death and misery.Dont blame the world for your on doing.Its sin against sin pure and simple.
July 21st, 2008 at 5:51 pm
I wasnt aware of or overlooked your comment policy.I have read it now and will comply.
The things I say from now on and have said are not intended to be offensive except for my first entry of which I am sorry for.
I am not your enemy and never will be.I want to do what is right and say what is right.I at least admit to my wrong and feel guilt for it unlike most comments I have read so far.I want you to know there are real Cristians out here that really care.Dont let some of the things I say offend you.Maybe just one person on both sides can gain from the things I say.
Roy
July 21st, 2008 at 7:10 pm
Roy,
Language is important to what creates violence or stops it. Each time we put moral judgments on others, we help cultivate violence. I am deeply saddened when I read you words because it sounds to me like you feel confident in your words. I see that “doing the right thing” is really important to you.
For me, compassion cannot co-exist with moral judgments. True compassion means being with someone right there in the moment and meeting them where they are not where you think they should be. It means see them as they are and understanding it from the heart.
I feel discouraged about the world when I read your words. I value so people seeing me authentically. I would like very much to connect with you in a way that we can see it other authentically and transparently. I am not feeling confident that could happen when I hear words that talk of gays and lesbians as “evil” and heterosexuals as “normal.” These things suggest to me that you have not come to a place where you truly understand homosexuality or what it means to be gay. I would be happy to chat about those things with you, but I am fearful that you won’t see much from my words with the enemy images you carry of those of us who are gay.
-Joe
July 21st, 2008 at 7:14 pm
Roy,
I would also ask that you rethink the blame the victim of violence for the violence they have experienced thinking. No one ever brings violence on themselves. It is another way of saying “they deserve it” and no one ever deserves to be a victim of violence.
Thanks,
Joe
July 22nd, 2008 at 6:18 am
Joe,
Not a day passes that I dont try to be a better person and have understanding and compassion on everyone.I am not perfect and never will be.If my heart is bitter toward anyone then I am not at peace.
I am a Christian and have been for 10 years.Prior to that I was one of those that would get in your face quick for tring to convince me there was a God or spirits.Im not going to try to convert you Joe.Im going to do my best to see your heart and where your coming from.All I ask is that you do the same for me,OK?
Ill get back to you later.
Thanks
Roy
July 22nd, 2008 at 7:00 am
As for all of you that claim to be Christians.If you feel no conviction in your comments that have been made in anger or hate or with intentional offense as I did and do not ask for forgiveness and apologize on this web site then you need to take a look at youself and ask If you know God like you think you do.It is not for us to agree or condone homosexuality but we have to love them and love is a choice.You would know that if you were truly a christian.
July 22nd, 2008 at 11:55 am
Roy, you say:
“The more I research on homosexuals the more clearer it becomes that the more you push your sin into the world the more violence you bring on yourselves.”
I would like to know where your sources are for this. And when I read what you said, I could not help but hear the words of someone else when they said that woman bring on rape when they dress in a certain way. Do you believe that women bring on rape?
Violence comes from outside. I can’t believe that any glbt person would ask to be beaten up. Violence comes from someone else. Just because someone is gay does not automatically mean that they should be beaten or killed. Surely you understand that much.
It sounds like you have a horrific past yourself. You should not blame yourself for the actions of your step father. I do hope that your step son gets some help. I am also very concerned that you are turning his mother away from him. It sounds like you had to convince her that he was gay. Why would you do that? Are you doing that to help him, or help yourself?
Also, you seem to think that there are ‘thousands’ of ex-gays. However, a study funded by Exodus last year clearly showed that people really don’t change their sexual orientation–they just convince themselves that they have changed.
Finally, you state that Joe’s website is “to promote sin and rebell against any one that is against you.” That could not be further from the real truth. Remember, you have come to this website on your own. Joe is not promoting anything but good will towards all people–Christian and non Christian. He isn’t promoting sin. He isn’t promoting rebellion. I suggest you read through some of the old posts and look specifically at Joe’s comments. If you do this truthfully, you will see that you are wrong.
–Kevin
July 22nd, 2008 at 1:54 pm
If the description of his stepson is true, it sounds to me like both of them need REAL (non-religious based) therapy.
Actually I’d be scared of having a stepfather who “knew I was gay when he first met me”. Sounds to me like some underlying crush he has on his own stepkid.
I’d be worried!
July 22nd, 2008 at 2:02 pm
“To this day I still struggle from time to time of wanting to grow pot again but that will never happen because its wrong.”
No it’s not! God created marijuana (as long as you don’t lace it), but man makes nasty drugs like crystal meth. Who do YOU trust?
Now get back into the field, and start growing! I’ll buy some weed from you, but I don’t buy your high and mighty moral pedestal that you put yourself on.
July 22nd, 2008 at 3:52 pm
Scott did you not except my apology?It seems you want to draw me into an arguement and get back on a lower level.Im doing my best to correct my thinking.Are you going to make me think my first few comments were right?Or at least about you.Im not going there Scott.
July 22nd, 2008 at 4:18 pm
Scott (and Roy)
I am slightly uncomfortable with exchange you guys are having. I am needing both of you to be welcome here. Would both of you be willing to use positive language when speaking to each other. TO be clear, let me clarify what I mean by positive. Use language that connects and empathizes with the other. Spend time on what people are feeling and needing and less time judging them. Such a conversation would be more productive when we don’t see eye to eye.
-Peace-
Joe
July 22nd, 2008 at 4:20 pm
Kevin
No I do not believe that women bring on rape and no I do not believe that you deserve any kind of violence.
My wife is Christian too and she doesnt condone same sex either.AS her husband and a christian and father its quite normal and the right thing for me to let her know her son is gay.Its obvious you dont understand the moral obligation of what we consider normal just like I dont understand your way of thinking but I,ll do my best without judgeing anyone.She will never push her son away and neither will I.Is it hard for you to believe that there is such a thing as A real christian that wants to do good and understand?
Your Exodus findings are very wrong.Look for another source Kevin,your misinformed.
Violence comes from a source your not capable of understanding.Grow a little more in your thinking and we will discuss it.
Put your anger away as I have otherwise all youll do is wait to read my comments just to put me down because I disaprove of same sex.Do you want to grow or do you think you have learned all you can or know everything?
July 22nd, 2008 at 4:20 pm
Scott,
as an after thought for you. I enjoy and feel entertained by your words. I always smile when I read them. I do wonder and feel curious if sometimes less entertaining come backs would be express your feelings and needs with those who are not so friendly to gays and lesbians. Please let me know what you feel about what I have said.
Joe
July 22nd, 2008 at 6:11 pm
Roy,
Kevin is right on the money. There are not thousands of ex-gays. Studies show that very few people are able to change there sexuality. I would add to that, no mental health or psychological organization supports efforts to try and change sexuality.
From my personal experience, I can tell you I have studied violence for years now. The statements about violence coming from a source we are not able to understand is bullshit. Sorry, but we are able to understand violence and we are able to change it and prevent it. I know for fact that is true. I also ask again, that you stop telling others they are angry when you don’t know if they are. Please ask people what they are feeling rather than telling them.
I think if you truly want to understand us, you might want to stop telling us what we think, feel and how the world goes. Stop talking and start listening and asking questions.
Thanks,
-Joe
July 22nd, 2008 at 7:15 pm
Roy,
Thanks for your response. However, you did say: “The more I research on homosexuals the more clearer it becomes that the more you push your sin into the world the more violence you bring on yourselves.” Maybe you can explain that more to me. It sounds as though you think the more open I am, the more I bring on violence against myself, just because I am open. I might be wrong, so enlighten me. I hope you can explain exactly what you mean when you say that I bring on violence to myself when I am open.
You say that my Exodus findings are wrong and to look for another source, but maybe you haven’t heard of Exodus. They are supposedly the biggest group that tries to convert homosexuals to heterosexuals. They are the ones who paid for a study that was released earlier this year. Their catch-phrase is that “there are thousands and thousands of people who have changed.” When you say there are thousands, how do you know this? Where did you get that number?
You also state: “Violence comes from a source your not capable of understanding. Grow a little more in your thinking and we will discuss it.” That is a pretty insulting statement. I am 43 years old. I have a Ph.D. in early Christianity. I’ve seen enough in my life to know what violence is. I am fully capable of independent thought. Given your background, I fully believe that you probably understand more about violence than I do, but you can’t expect me to take you seriously when you tell me to ‘grow a little.’ What that really tells me is that you don’t have the answer so you made up that insulting statement. So why don’t you enlighten me and tell me where that place is that violence comes from that you think I don’t understand.
July 23rd, 2008 at 6:35 am
“I do wonder and feel curious if sometimes less entertaining come backs would be express your feelings and needs with those who are not so friendly to gays and lesbians. Please let me know what you feel about what I have said.”
I don’t totally understand, possibly a typo in the question?
If you’re asking would it be more productive to be dull, when dealing with bible thumpers - the answer is no.
Nothing upsets a “christian” more than a good sense of humour, or that somebody has the gall to laugh in their face when they go cursing them by speaking in tongues, shaking a skin bag full of chicken bones and feathers at them, or whatever fucked-up way they “fight the evil in you”.
In short, I deal with these guys the same way I’d deal with the likes of Mother Love, Dionne Warwick, and Miss Cleo - it’s really all the same thing to me. Kookery.
July 23rd, 2008 at 11:42 am
Ok Scott
Your the one and kind that brings things on your self and others that want to change and make things better.You say my statements cause people to turn athiest and that all christians are bad and all the other descriptions you have for us.Well Im not going to consider all gays to be like you and your hatred and inmaturity unable to have a decent and positive conversation.Rant and rave all you want Scott because its you that I will no longer reply to.You are the one that should be classified in the hate section.This is what I see and this is what I feel, but quess what!I dont hate you.I feel sorry for you.
July 23rd, 2008 at 11:50 am
Kevin
Thank you for your sincere letter.I will continue to comment.This is all new to me.I have much to learn.Have a good day.Ill get back to you later.
Thanks
Roy
July 23rd, 2008 at 5:45 pm
Kevin
I re-read your e-mail due to being in a hurry the first time I read it.Sorry but I wish I would have waited to comment to Scott.
July 23rd, 2008 at 6:23 pm
Joe
Why do you continue to allow Scott to express his hate and anger.I dont have to point his issues out.Only an idiot or someone that agrees with him would deny that he is all about hate and anger and he uses your web site to express it.I thought you were against that or is it a one sided sort of thing?
July 23rd, 2008 at 7:19 pm
Roy,
So either I am an idiot or I agree with him? Why only 2 choices? A third choice may be the same reason I have allowed you to continue despite some of what you have expressed. I feel uncomfortable with the way Scott communicates as it doesn’t meet my needs for respect or compassion. On the other hand, I don’t expect Scott to be where I am anymore than I am where he is. Compassion means meeting people where they are not where you think they “should” be. One of the most violent words in the dictionary is “should”. I would value Scott using a different tactic. He doesn’t see that the one he is using isn’t working. Rather than connecting people with different views, such language drives us further apart. I am not sure I see any benefits to that.
My suggestion to you Roy, is that rather than hearing Scott’s “hate” or “anger”, why not connect with it? It is a gift so to speak. It is a chance to talk with Scott and ask him why he is angry. Don’t judge Scott as angry and hateful, just listen for what Scott is feeling and needing and connect with that. The same way I did for you when I responded to your first comments. When we hear difficult messages we have choices. We can turn the message on ourselves and say “I am so stupid” or we can turn it on others by saying “your so stupid” or we can choose to connect with the feelings and needs that are hiding in the messages.
I would like to suggest to you Roy, that you spend some time here reading the writings on this site. I have been doing this for a few years and there is much to read. Start anywhere and you will see what I am all about. I would also suggest you read my journey into nonviolence which can be found to your left. It will help you understand what I am for or against.
-Joe
July 24th, 2008 at 5:07 pm
Joe
Im am certainly not above taking your advice.
I did just yesterday read as you suggested and thats the only reason I came back to commenting and of course Kevins invitation to come back.
I have had alot of experiences in my life.You know of only a couple.I am not without an education.I have done exstensive studies on human nature and thought patterns and natural laws.Have you ever looked into natural laws?Few scientist if any will disagree on them.One example is the law of health.We have been breaking this law since chemicals came along.We live in a chemical world.WE ingest it,we put it on our skin and so on.Since chemicals, there are more sickness than ever.More cancer,alergies,new flew viruses and the list is endless.Modern medicine is a violation of the laws of health.FDA is in business to break this law: not to protect us.In time it will catch up to us as it already is.All I ask is check out all of the natural laws.Youll find out that we cant defeat any of them but we can overcome them for a while such as jumping from an airplane with a parachute.Gravity isnt defeated.You will come down just slower.
Please dont be offended by where Im going with this as you already know.You said you believe in facts and science.Check it out.
Roy
July 24th, 2008 at 5:51 pm
Joe
To be sure you dont misread into where Im going with natural law,It will not be a reference to aids.I suppose it could be but I dont know.
Roy
July 24th, 2008 at 8:22 pm
Roy,
I have no idea where you are going with natural law, but I am sure it isn’t going to influence my thinking about homosexuality in anyway. I agree with Natural law but it has no bearing on sexual orientation.
I can tell you (to answer your questions above) that I never made a choice to be gay. I did make a choice to stop fighting it. At the age of 22, I broke up with the girl I was with for many years because I knew it was wrong to continue seeing her when I knew I was not sexually attracted to women. I then spent considerable time alone. At some point, I met someone and things changed. My outlook changed for the better. Not too long after that I came out.
Homosexuality is a normal occurrence just like being left handed. The science is getting closer to understanding it. You can look at some of that if you click the link to the left. Just like left handedness, there has not been a gene found, but eventually it will be found.
Natural law is more a philosophy than a science. Many scientist do agree with it, but most disregard it as theory not backed by fact. Contrary to what you have said above very few scientists agree with natural law. Theologians on the other hand have used it as fact even though it is not.
I myself, agree with some of the Natural law stuff. It is intriguing, but it is philosophy, not science. To claim most scientist agree with it, please cite some source that backs up the claim.
July 25th, 2008 at 5:18 pm
“Only an idiot or someone that agrees with him would deny that he is all about hate and anger and he uses your web site to express it.”
Uh, why would I use Joe’s blog to express this alleged “hate” and “anger”, when I have my own, and my own YouTube channel?
If you think what I’ve said here is bad, you ain’t seen nothing yet! LOL
Unfortunately I can’t be everywhere at once, and only get to read this blog once in a while.
And please, don’t try to turn Joe against me, when I know for a fact you’re not with the “in crowd” of the GLBT blogging community, when you’re not crawling behind and trying to pacify those people who outright shriek for genocide of gay people.
They’re like the Jews who tried to convince the majority of Jews that Hitler was an allright guy, and they had nothing to worry about. Those particular Jews deserved what they got - I bet they felt stupid, as they were being hauled off in train carts.
July 25th, 2008 at 6:31 pm
Scott, I am not sure what you mean by your comments. Would you be willing to be more clear as to who and what you are talking about? Please use some examples.
Joe
July 25th, 2008 at 7:35 pm
I just said it’s kinda silly for him to play the “you’re with me, or you’re with him” game, to somebody who wasn’t with me in the first place. That’s all.
July 25th, 2008 at 8:47 pm
So, it sounds like you believe that you and I are not on the same team? Would I have that correct?
July 27th, 2008 at 4:40 pm
Not exactly - we’re polar opposites in our methods of dealing with the anti-gays, the kooks, etc. And it’s pretty obvious that you despise mine, as I do yours.
But don’t confuse that with “I despise you, you despise me”. It’s more like how I despise a coworkers work ethics, although we’ll totally get along once we’re off the clock LOL
July 27th, 2008 at 6:42 pm
Actually, I don’t despise your methods, I just don’t think they are effective. Rather than create understanding, your methods create animosity. Look at Roy. Look at the comments he left at Marks blog and what he says about coming here. He compares us to Satan and his demons. Now I understand some of that is out of Roy’s unmet needs to convert us all to born again anti-gay christians, on the other hand I believe we could have been more compassionate for his situations. Roy came here not understanding us and he left not understand us. How are those methods helpful? Nothing was solved and no one is in any better position. That could have been different had we all chosen to engage Roy in a peaceful and compassion way.
I just don’t think your methods do anyone any good, but I don’t despise them, I feel sorry for those that use them as like many things that seem effective on the surface, such methods don’t work. We have centuries of war to prove that.
July 27th, 2008 at 9:50 pm
OK, “despise” may have been the wrong word LOL - but we’re still polar opposite. You deal with them with your Gandhi/compassion method, and I choose comedy and heckling.
If you want my honest opinion, either your way or my way, Roy (or anyone like him) would have left steaming and grinding his teeth, because he didn’t get his talons into anybody. If he’s rubbing elbows with the likes of Mark, I wouldn’t be surprised if he was just a sock puppet, wasting your precious time.
With the language he walked in here with, I didn’t believe it for a second that he had a change of heart overnight - especially when he’s never met you in person.
Maybe he was stoned that night - I know that’s the only time I can actually tolerate something you wouldn’t catch me enjoying, if I were sober. I hate Britney’s music, but if you give me enough weed, I might groove to a couple of her songs, a little! LOL